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on this episode of skeptic Oh Alex talks

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with the neuro philosophy pioneer dr.

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Patricia Churchland about the

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implications of near-death experience

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science on neuro philosophy well

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specifically dr. Churchland you cite in

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your book that dr. pin van LOM will

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holds that opinion that's clearly not

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the case I mean he's really mm-hmm all

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right yeah I'm gonna read you what he's

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written he's written at the study of

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patients with near-death experience and

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this is from The Lancet paper that

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you're citing clearly shows us tick stay

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welcome to skeptical where we explore

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controversial science with leading

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researchers thinkers and their critics

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I'm your host Alex Karras and for this

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episode of skeptic oh I almost feel like

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I need to issue one of those warnings

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that they put on the front of shows that

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have content that might be inappropriate

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for some viewers you know I'm always

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surprised when people are squeamish over

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confrontation conflict debate of any

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sort I mean I get that on one level you

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know we don't want to see people squirm

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and we want everyone to be nice to each

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other and all that and I get that

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but on another level I want you to

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consider in this interview with dr.

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Patricia Churchland who I've really been

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trying to contact for years I have

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emails going back several years ago

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trying to contact this woman who is a

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well respected academic oxford-educated

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UCSD which is a prestigious university

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out here in California highly regarded

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at these conferences gives these

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speeches and has blabbed about these

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ridiculous ideas about consciousness

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that she has she's blabbed about it for

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years how else would one confront her on

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the nonsense

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that she talks about I mean how do you

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do that in in a nice way how do you do

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that in a non-confrontational way I

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don't know that you can so it really

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surprised me the extent to which she

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kind of breaks down and squirms and just

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kind of goes out in the outer limits of

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reality and believability in this

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interview but I don't really know how to

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approach these things any other way if

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you really want to get answers so with

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that said here's my interview with dr.

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Patricia Churchland today we welcome dr.

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Patricia Churchland - skeptic Oh dr.

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Churchland is a professor of philosophy

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at the University of California San

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Diego and at the very prestigious

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institute both of which are just a few

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miles from where I sit which is kind of

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interesting she's also a very highly

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regarded academic and best known for her

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pioneering work in the field of neuro

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philosophy where she looks to interface

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between traditional philosophical

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questions and new developments in the

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science of neuroscience she's the author

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of several books including touching a

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nerve the self as brain dr. Churchland

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welcomed a skeptic oh thanks so much for

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joining me well you know in addition to

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seeing some of your excellent youtubes

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and other interviews that you've done

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out there I did have a chance to dip

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into a couple of these books and most

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recently I was trying to dig into

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touching a nerve tell us about that

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who's it written for first of all and

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what's the general thrust of it well

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it's been for a very general audience it

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was really provoked I think by my

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realization as I taught undergraduates

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that many many people have a kind of

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ambivalence about neuroscience on the

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one hand they're they find it

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fascinating it teaches them something

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about themselves and sometimes teaches

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them things that are very surprising on

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the other hand they they think oh gosh

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you know what if I mean if I'm only my

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brain you know isn't doesn't that sort

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of freak you out and I think I think

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it's a very natural reaction especially

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if one has thoughts about an afterlife

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and and so forth and so I really wanted

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to address that kind of ambivalence and

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I wanted to sort of explain how things

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look from my perspective and

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why it is or how it is perhaps I should

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say that I feel very comfortable with my

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brain and with knowing that my

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perceptions my consciousness my beliefs

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my desires they really are a function of

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the physical brain that resides within

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my head yeah great and that's really

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kind of an interesting place to start

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this idea that consciousness is an

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illusion of a biological robot it's not

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an illusion at all this is the quote of

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course that's what Daniel Dennett said

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right that's not what I said okay what

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are you so it's not an illusion what is

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it are we biological robots like Richard

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Dawkins thinks I don't think Richard

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thinks that we're biological robots

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either I mean I think that what what I

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what does seem to be emerging from

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science is that consciousness third

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sample is a property of the physical

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brain that's one of the things one of

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the many things actually that the

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physical brain does and it changes when

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we fall asleep it changes when we drink

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alcohol it changes when we're tired or

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very hungry and it changes also as a

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result of changes in hormones and so if

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you think about your own puberty for

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example you will remember that as the

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levels of sex hormones in your pituitary

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changed and consequently as the levels

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of sex hormones in your brain changed

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you began to think about things in a

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rather different way and you began to

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notice certain kinds of things to pay

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attention to be fixated by certain kinds

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of things and so forth and so we think

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that that consciousness is a function of

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the physical brain it's a very

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fascinating function it's almost

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certainly not too unique unique to

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humans but it is a very real property of

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the physical brain in just the way that

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I movements or many other

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functions memory attention

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problem-solving reasoning self-control

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these are all things that are properties

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of the physical brain yeah but aren't we

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kind of trying to split hairs and kind

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of move away from the consciousness is

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an illusion thing without really jumping

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all the way to the other side of where

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the physicists are taking us and saying

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that consciousness is somehow

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fundamental I mean if we break down this

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debate on what is the nature of

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consciousness we have these two camps

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that we've been talking about I guess

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talking around one is this very

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materialistic view like I think you

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started out but then I don't know if

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you're really we're holding to that that

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you know consciousness is purely a

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result of an epiphenomena of the brain

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it's it is an actual phenomenon of the

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physical brain it's one of the things

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that the physical brain does and just

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the way that your brain stores memories

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and some of those memories change over

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time

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as a result of changes in the physical

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brain and we know for example that

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people who have Alzheimer's because they

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have lost many neurons in the fifth in

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in their brains no longer have a

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capacity to remember certain things

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memory is a real function of the

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physical brain and so it was

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consciousness it's not an illusion it's

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the real deal

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but it's the what is it I mean I think

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we're kind of dancing around you're

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saying it's immaterial or it is material

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or it's immaterial I mean don't we need

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to nail it down a little bit more than

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that you're saying it's what's an

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emergent property of the brain isn't

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that kind of passing the buck a little

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bit here's the other possible

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explanation consciousness is somehow

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fundamental and that the brain is

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somehow interacting with this

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consciousness which is a reality and

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somehow in the field of consciousness is

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out there in the brain is somehow

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interacting with it but that's not to

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confuse it with being purely a result of

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brain active

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I mean that is a completely different

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theory right if the theory for which

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there's essentially no evidence and one

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of the problems with that approach is

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that we can't understand for example why

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taking a drug should change your

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consciousness if consciousness is not

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part of the physical brain because we

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know that the drug changes the physical

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brain and if consciousness is somehow

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completely independent of that because

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it's a fundamental feature of the unit

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it has to be do you have to be

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completely independent obviously there's

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some relationship of that close

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relationship what always puzzled

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Descartes is if there there is an

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independent non-physical so how does it

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interact with a physical brain and the

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problem with dualism is that nobody has

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ever been able to address that in a

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meaningful testable way yeah but I think

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what we also have problems with the

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ideas emergent property of the brain

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thing that we're kind of moving to right

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I mean I interviewed Christof Koch from

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Caltech last year and he's the guy who I

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really think set people down this

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direction that we can no longer claim

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that consciousness is a product of the

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brain and we have to move towards this

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what seems to me this kind of middle

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position where we're saying what does he

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say ontologically distinct but never

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really define how consciousness begins

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how consciousness ends exactly what the

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relationship is with the brain I mean

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aren't I think a lot of people are more

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comfortable with Daniel Dennett Richard

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Dawkins ok consciousness is an illusion

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then they are with this middle ground

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that I don't really know how that

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answers the big questions of what is the

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nature of consciousness other than just

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to repeat that consciousness is

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something that the brain does I mean

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that doesn't tell us much

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what isn't how does it begin when does

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it end what's necessary and sufficient

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to cause consciousness these are all

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questions that are unanswered by what

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you're saying science hasn't got all the

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answers yet there's about go ahead no

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I'm sorry I mean but that's just kind of

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passing the buck we don't have the

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answers those are fundamental questions

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if we don't have the answers then we

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don't really have a theory of what kind

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this is right that's what your view

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seems to be alright well I'm just saying

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me these are basic when does

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consciousness begin when does it end

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what is necessary and sufficient to

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create consciousness if we can't answer

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those then what what do we really have

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what can we really say about

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consciousness we can't say anything ok

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well I think we can say some things I

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think we can say well let me ask you

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this I I didn't mean to throw you

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completely off you want to get back to

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talking about your book maybe no not

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really

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ok let me ask you this dr. Churchland do

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you think consciousness can do work is

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that an important element to

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understanding what consciousness is I

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mean the theory before the zit

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consciousness can't really do anything

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but have we come around I think there's

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research that suggests that maybe

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consciousness can be focused can direct

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can affect neural plasticity and other

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things what's your feeling about that

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what do you seem to think that it

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doesn't work so why don't we just go

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with that

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so you agree it does do work I have no

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opinion on the matter ok what do you

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think about near-death experience you

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write quite a bit about that in your

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book and what is your general take on

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near-death experience I'm not sure that

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it really matters does it does it matter

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what does that matter for well I think a

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lot of folks look at near-death

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experience as highly suggestive of

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consciousness somehow in some way we

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don't understand

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surviving biological death which would

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certainly kind of falsify that other

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idea that it's so tied to the brain and

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the consciousness ends at death I mean

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that would falsify that right oh I'm

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sorry

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00:13:57,769 --> 00:13:54,059
there is my dog just came in

307
00:14:01,429 --> 00:13:57,779
no no no don't do that can't no no no no

308
00:14:03,650 --> 00:14:01,439
oh dear me I'm sorry okay so yeah okay

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yeah I guess I've never had actually a

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near-death experience

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00:14:14,929 --> 00:14:10,919
have you no but I mean write quite a bit

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about it in your book so why do you want

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me to talk about it

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00:14:23,449 --> 00:14:20,279
well I guess one of the things I did

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00:14:25,819 --> 00:14:23,459
want to ask you is in your book you

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asked the question is there a

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neurobiological explanation for

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near-death experience and then you cite

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NDE researcher and a former guest on

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00:14:39,530 --> 00:14:35,970
this show as answering that question

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with yes and you say that dr. PIM van

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Lommel believes the answer is yes is

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that your understanding of his research

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well I think there's certainly quite a

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bit of evidence that at least some

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near-death experiences have a

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neurobiological basis of course we can't

328
00:14:58,970 --> 00:14:57,299
be sure about all of them maybe you've

329
00:15:00,859 --> 00:14:58,980
had one that doesn't have a

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neurobiological basis I wouldn't really

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know would I well specifically dr.

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Churchland you cite in your book that

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dr. PIM van Lommel holds that opinion

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that's clearly not the case I mean he's

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written a C mm-hmm all right you I'm

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gonna read you what he's written he's

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written at the study of patients with

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near-death experience and this is from

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The Lancet paper that you're citing

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00:15:29,150 --> 00:15:28,319
clearly shows us that so that's it she

341
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hung up on me

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00:15:34,039 --> 00:15:31,799
a first really of all the interviews

343
00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:34,049
I've done that's the first well I

344
00:15:40,099 --> 00:15:35,970
immediately got an email and I sent her

345
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this very short email my email reads Wow

346
00:15:43,879 --> 00:15:41,100
that's a first

347
00:15:46,129 --> 00:15:43,889
smiley face is that really how you want

348
00:15:49,479 --> 00:15:46,139
to end things I think you're gonna look

349
00:15:51,739 --> 00:15:49,489
pretty bad it's all I said and I fully

350
00:15:54,529 --> 00:15:51,749
expected that that would be the end of

351
00:15:58,220 --> 00:15:54,539
it I mean come on that was really testy

352
00:15:59,779 --> 00:15:58,230
the tension was really thick and I just

353
00:16:00,019 --> 00:15:59,789
thought I'd just never hear from her

354
00:16:03,169 --> 00:16:00,029
again

355
00:16:06,379 --> 00:16:03,179
but to my surprise she emailed me back a

356
00:16:07,070 --> 00:16:06,389
few minutes later she writes sorry lost

357
00:16:10,580 --> 00:16:07,080
connect

358
00:16:14,390 --> 00:16:10,590
action I think my computer has a little

359
00:16:18,860 --> 00:16:14,400
problem so sorry Pat so I immediately

360
00:16:19,370 --> 00:16:18,870
skived her again here's that call caught

361
00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:19,380
up

362
00:16:24,650 --> 00:16:22,770
are we back I can hear you can you hear

363
00:16:29,590 --> 00:16:24,660
me you're coming through loud and clear

364
00:16:39,770 --> 00:16:37,670
sorry yeah okay so what's up well let's

365
00:16:41,330 --> 00:16:39,780
try and let's try and finish I think it

366
00:16:44,270 --> 00:16:41,340
was getting a little bit testy there I

367
00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:44,280
mean tell me what you're tell me what

368
00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:47,610
the what the rub is here I'm telling you

369
00:16:52,670 --> 00:16:50,850
that you get totally distorted Vaughn

370
00:16:55,130 --> 00:16:52,680
Lamas thing it's right there in your

371
00:16:58,610 --> 00:16:55,140
book it's I can give you the exact page

372
00:17:01,550 --> 00:16:58,620
it's on page 71 you say there's a

373
00:17:04,370 --> 00:17:01,560
neurological explanation for nd ease is

374
00:17:07,100 --> 00:17:04,380
there and then you cite pinv Alamo as a

375
00:17:08,510 --> 00:17:07,110
in de researcher who says there is he

376
00:17:14,870 --> 00:17:08,520
clearly doesn't he says the exact

377
00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:14,880
opposite hello

378
00:17:22,970 --> 00:17:20,970
yeah oh sorry yeah so I mean what's how

379
00:17:26,180 --> 00:17:22,980
do you explain that is just a mistake or

380
00:17:30,890 --> 00:17:26,190
do you not know his research a lot of

381
00:17:33,260 --> 00:17:30,900
people do see that there are certain

382
00:17:36,020 --> 00:17:33,270
drugs and so forth that can cause

383
00:17:38,360 --> 00:17:36,030
out-of-body experiences or near-death

384
00:17:39,770 --> 00:17:38,370
experiences but dr. Churchill I'm

385
00:17:44,390 --> 00:17:39,780
talking about what you wrote in your

386
00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:44,400
book on page 71 you asked you know you

387
00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:47,010
say that this researcher near-death

388
00:17:51,010 --> 00:17:49,770
experience researcher claims that

389
00:17:55,100 --> 00:17:51,020
there's that there's a neurological

390
00:17:57,230 --> 00:17:55,110
based explanation for nd ease that's not

391
00:17:57,740 --> 00:17:57,240
what he says he says the opposite who

392
00:18:00,080 --> 00:17:57,750
else

393
00:18:02,270 --> 00:18:00,090
what other NDE researchers do you know

394
00:18:11,250 --> 00:18:02,280
who support that what you're saying do

395
00:18:27,190 --> 00:18:23,320
hello dr. Churchland are you there hello

396
00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:27,200
sir can you hear me you're I'm here you

397
00:18:33,370 --> 00:18:28,850
now I didn't hear anything before there

398
00:18:35,110 --> 00:18:33,380
was just a long silence oh I don't know

399
00:18:37,900 --> 00:18:35,120
what is going on I don't know whether

400
00:18:39,550 --> 00:18:37,910
it's your computer or whether it's my

401
00:18:44,140 --> 00:18:39,560
computer or whether you're just messing

402
00:18:49,410 --> 00:18:44,150
with me or what's going on here but this

403
00:18:52,510 --> 00:18:49,420
is not actually working out because if I

404
00:18:54,730 --> 00:18:52,520
want things and you say you can't hear

405
00:18:56,830 --> 00:18:54,740
me so I don't really know what to say

406
00:18:58,720 --> 00:18:56,840
well no please respond I hear you fine

407
00:19:07,780 --> 00:18:58,730
now you're talking I don't have any

408
00:19:10,300 --> 00:19:07,790
problem do you want to write me an email

409
00:19:24,190 --> 00:19:10,310
response maybe to that to that question

410
00:19:26,410 --> 00:19:24,200
I can I can do that okay so now surely

411
00:19:29,110 --> 00:19:26,420
this is the end of this right I mean

412
00:19:30,940 --> 00:19:29,120
it's just a charade at this point if you

413
00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:30,950
listen at the very her putting her

414
00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:33,170
coffee mug or whatever it is down on the

415
00:19:35,740 --> 00:19:34,490
table you can hear the background noise

416
00:19:37,870 --> 00:19:35,750
and she's not talking into the

417
00:19:40,030 --> 00:19:37,880
microphone claiming that there's these

418
00:19:44,590 --> 00:19:40,040
technical difficulties so surely it's

419
00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:44,600
over now right nope back to the email a

420
00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:46,970
few minutes later she writes tried

421
00:19:52,750 --> 00:19:49,610
calling you no answer maybe the problem

422
00:19:55,570 --> 00:19:52,760
is on your end so I immediately emailed

423
00:19:58,870 --> 00:19:55,580
her back no problem do you want to

424
00:20:02,100 --> 00:19:58,880
finish the interview question mark so I

425
00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:02,110
called her for a third time here goes

426
00:20:12,670 --> 00:20:10,780
actually my husband's on my landline so

427
00:20:14,500 --> 00:20:12,680
that's not going to work no there's

428
00:20:16,540 --> 00:20:14,510
something there's just something not

429
00:20:21,130 --> 00:20:16,550
working here I just don't know quite

430
00:20:23,170 --> 00:20:21,140
what it is so I'm working fine now I

431
00:20:34,180 --> 00:20:23,180
wanted to go ahead and give it a try now

432
00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:34,190
to say yeah okay so yeah and that was

433
00:20:39,220 --> 00:20:37,490
the end of it I did send her another

434
00:20:42,310 --> 00:20:39,230
email asking her how she'd like to

435
00:20:45,580 --> 00:20:42,320
proceed but I never heard back from her

436
00:20:47,530 --> 00:20:45,590
of course I'd like to again thank dr.

437
00:20:49,210 --> 00:20:47,540
Patricia Churchland for appearing on

438
00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:49,220
skeptic Oh for agreeing to do the

439
00:20:56,170 --> 00:20:51,650
interview and for pushing through all

440
00:20:58,240 --> 00:20:56,180
the technical problems we had I'm sure

441
00:21:00,430 --> 00:20:58,250
it was a mistake on her part these kind

442
00:21:02,230 --> 00:21:00,440
of people normally don't engage in any

443
00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:02,240
kind of debate or any kind of real

444
00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:04,730
substantial back-and-forth on these

445
00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:07,490
issues I do have to say in my email I

446
00:21:11,500 --> 00:21:09,290
told her exactly where I was coming from

447
00:21:14,050 --> 00:21:11,510
I pointed to other interviews I've done

448
00:21:15,550 --> 00:21:14,060
I think I pointed to the Christoph cook

449
00:21:18,010 --> 00:21:15,560
interview and the Stuart Hameroff

450
00:21:19,930 --> 00:21:18,020
interview initially when I contacted her

451
00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:19,940
years ago she responded and said you

452
00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:21,770
know I don't really believe in Stuart

453
00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:23,330
Hameroff side ia's and therefore I don't

454
00:21:27,550 --> 00:21:25,490
want to talk about it and I copied that

455
00:21:29,950 --> 00:21:27,560
original email when I follow it up so

456
00:21:31,930 --> 00:21:29,960
it's not like she didn't know where I

457
00:21:33,730 --> 00:21:31,940
was coming from she just didn't focus on

458
00:21:35,260 --> 00:21:33,740
it otherwise she I think she would have

459
00:21:36,970 --> 00:21:35,270
been better prepared but then again I

460
00:21:39,370 --> 00:21:36,980
don't know how she could have prepared

461
00:21:42,490 --> 00:21:39,380
herself better because her ideas are

462
00:21:44,650 --> 00:21:42,500
ridiculous and her performance

463
00:21:46,540 --> 00:21:44,660
I don't know I'm gonna be really

464
00:21:50,110 --> 00:21:46,550
interested to hear what you all have to

465
00:21:51,670 --> 00:21:50,120
say it was stunning to me it was

466
00:21:53,740 --> 00:21:51,680
laughable in fact I think you heard me

467
00:21:56,590 --> 00:21:53,750
laugh a couple of times here's a woman I

468
00:21:59,170 --> 00:21:56,600
can hear the background noise and yet

469
00:22:01,780 --> 00:21:59,180
she's suggesting that there's some kind

470
00:22:04,540 --> 00:22:01,790
of malfunction in the equipment and that

471
00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:04,550
that's the reason why she can't respond

472
00:22:11,110 --> 00:22:08,170
to my questions so I just offer up one

473
00:22:14,140 --> 00:22:11,120
question and it's a recurring question

474
00:22:14,620 --> 00:22:14,150
on skeptiko and that is what's going on

475
00:22:17,170 --> 00:22:14,630
here

476
00:22:20,590 --> 00:22:17,180
how have we devolved into a scientific

477
00:22:23,230 --> 00:22:20,600
and academic system that props up such

478
00:22:26,140 --> 00:22:23,240
nonsense again the real scary thing

479
00:22:29,530 --> 00:22:26,150
about dr. Churchland is her opinion is

480
00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:29,540
the status quo majority opinion it's

481
00:22:35,530 --> 00:22:32,930
nonsensical it's indefensible but it's

482
00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:35,540
the majority opinion and don't question

483
00:22:38,550 --> 00:22:36,530
it

484
00:22:41,410 --> 00:22:38,560
so again the question is a fresh look at

485
00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:41,420
what's going on here how can this be

486
00:22:48,310 --> 00:22:44,570
what's wrong with the system this isn't

487
00:22:51,150 --> 00:22:48,320
an isolated situation this is systemic

488
00:22:54,010 --> 00:22:51,160
this isn't about philosophy or neuro

489
00:22:57,130 --> 00:22:54,020
philosophy whatever that means this is

490
00:23:00,370 --> 00:22:57,140
about science this is about the culture

491
00:23:03,010 --> 00:23:00,380
war debate over who we are what we are

492
00:23:03,460 --> 00:23:03,020
where we came from that's what this is

493
00:23:05,530 --> 00:23:03,470
about

494
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:05,540
and that's why this silliness is put

495
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:07,690
forth in the way that it is because

496
00:23:13,170 --> 00:23:10,610
institutional science is more afraid of

497
00:23:16,300 --> 00:23:13,180
whatever else might come out of the data

498
00:23:20,140 --> 00:23:16,310
than they are of these old tired

499
00:23:22,570 --> 00:23:20,150
worn-out nonsensical ideas well there

500
00:23:25,180 --> 00:23:22,580
I've answered the question but I still

501
00:23:27,490 --> 00:23:25,190
hope you'll answer it as well and of

502
00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:27,500
course a place to do that is that the

503
00:23:34,630 --> 00:23:32,210
skeptic Oh website at SK ep tik Oh calm

504
00:23:36,910 --> 00:23:34,640
there you can leave a comment right

505
00:23:38,110 --> 00:23:36,920
there in the show notes jump on over to

506
00:23:41,410 --> 00:23:38,120
the forum and join the conversation

507
00:23:44,830 --> 00:23:41,420
there or connect with me via Facebook or

508
00:23:47,470 --> 00:23:44,840
email so I have a number of interesting

509
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:47,480
ideas for shows coming up I don't have

510
00:23:51,550 --> 00:23:49,010
any shows in the hopper I've kind of

511
00:23:53,290 --> 00:23:51,560
cleaned up my backlog from the holidays

512
00:23:55,900 --> 00:23:53,300
so I'm ready to move on to some new

513
00:23:57,670 --> 00:23:55,910
topics and I'm not exactly sure where

514
00:23:59,470 --> 00:23:57,680
I'm going to go so I'm gonna have to dig

515
00:24:01,870 --> 00:23:59,480
through some of those many great

516
00:24:04,330 --> 00:24:01,880
suggestions that you've sent and see if

517
00:24:06,970 --> 00:24:04,340
I can find something there or see if

518
00:24:09,340 --> 00:24:06,980
something else pops up I do hope you'll

519
00:24:11,950 --> 00:24:09,350
stay with me for all of that I greatly

520
00:24:14,050 --> 00:24:11,960
greatly appreciate your support of the

521
00:24:16,060 --> 00:24:14,060
show and your willingness to share the

522
00:24:19,150 --> 00:24:16,070
show with other like-minded people